Two steps back. I envy those that have a simple faith. Those that love God and simply do what he says. I think I would love that. But for now, I have to live with these thoughts and these questions so here goes another ranting from the lunatic fringe.
Is the church organization the best way to show God’s love to the world?
If it is just a mechanism to allow people to get together…there are many other organizations that do that far better. If it is to come together to worship God…He makes it quite clear that he doesn’t dwell in our buildings but in us, therefore, where ever we are…he is there also. If it is to be used as a classroom for teaching the scriptures…there are schools that are created specifically for that purpose and would be more accurate in the information transferred. Also, the majority of the human population learns through experience and not in a sermon/one-way conversation. If it is about giving to the poor and helping the needy…check the financial statement of your church organization. I would be shocked if the largest expenditure wasn’t the salaries and the building. There are far better organizations out there to give your money to that help people directly and give you great opportunities to get involved.
So, here is the thing…I can’t find a reason for the church building, program, organization to exist.
This is a real issue for me. I am trying to find a way to live out what I now believe. I used to think Jesus was a wet noodle and I was embarrassed of him and for him. After removing a lot of the ‘christian’ culture and religion from my thinking…I can now really get Jesus. I can follow someone like him now that I realized he stuck up for the poor and the oppressed. That he partied and hung out with the crap of society (just like me!). So where do I go now to experience this? My local church? It doesn’t fit anymore. People have said to me, “Let’s start a church together!” or “Come to our church, it’s alive and doing awesome!”. I don’t think anyone is getting what I am saying.
I don’t think I fit into a church anymore. I don’t fit. And this applies to any church. Sorry to offend anyone but I have been in other churches, I was raised in a very progressive church, I was immersed in church culture by my father (who I love and respect deeply) and he showed me models that worked and those that didn’t, I have read books on churches and been to classes on churches and the bottom line is….every time I walk into the building, I cringe. Something inside of me starts screaming and I need to get out.
So this is the dilema. Either I move out of small town Sask and get on board with something I think I now believe in or I stay here and keep wrestling with my thoughts and be patient.
or…
I stop giving a shit and delete this blog. It would be one way of making life simpler. But I don’t think it would solve any of my problems.
My friend, I appreciate the honesty, the struggle, the questions. All those have a place.
Yet, I am at a point where I can hardly judge the church either. When it boils down to brass tacks, not many of us represent Jesus super well. If I look at my own financial statement, I spend more on my house than I do on the poor. I like to avoid rigid thinkers, yet Jesus sought them out to debate with them in sometimes loving, sometimes edgy, always inviting ways.
While he freely voiced negatives, the foundation of his approach was overwhelmingly positive. That’s why people listened, and followed.
I think, when one can move to a primarily joyful, positive, wholesome outlook on one’s own life and destiny, then, perhaps more objectivity exists to truly strike at the heart of the issues and be the change you call for. Otherwise the dark glasses color absolutely everything. I know, I have a few pair.
It’s wise not to enter buildings with dark glasses on. Nor does it make much sense to live all the while with rose coloured lenses. Yet, I think, like you that those who have found this joy to live, that seems at times Pollyanaish, may be the better off for it. May we find the grace to live in the hope of joyful alternatives amidst less than ideal realities.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I hear ya. I have had those glasses on my nose far too often without even noticing them there. There was some fear that I would become negative in this journey and simply rant about the church and all her failings, I am fighting hard against this and trying to maintain a balanced view. I would like to ask the very hard questions in hopes that I could learn the heart of the matter. I heard someone say once that all Christians should be idealists. We should all see the potential in every one and in every situation and then work towards it. I can say that I am only half of that. I can see how great things could be but I haven’t lifted a finger to achieve it. I am also one of those that does not represent Jesus well but I am working on it. If I appear to be in the judgement seat it is only because I believe many of our churches will be held accountable for their use of resources (time, people, money) to maintain the ‘club like’ atmosphere. Our local buildings are no exception. So I ask, is what is happening in our local church organizations what Jesus had in mind to bring love to the world? If yes, then lets celebrate and do more of it. If no, should this not be sending strong signals to re-evaluate priorities?
I understand the amount of money that goes into one’s personal dwelling and that it pales in comparison to most people’s charitable donations but the church building is not someone’s dwelling place, nor does it need to exist for God’s people to come together and be the church. I am not sure if that was the comparison you were trying to make so I apologize if I assumed.
You must have put some thought into that last line as I had to read it 4 or 5 times to get the full meaning of it. I love it! “May we find the grace to live in the hope of joyful alternatives amidst less than ideal realities.”
I was wondering if you were following the blog and this journey and I am very glad you responded. I hope to hear a lot more from you as I respect your wisdom and your insightfulness. I know that I can ask the hard questions with you and you will not judge me but challenge me strongly.
You’ve come to the same conclusions about your church (beware of generalizations!) that we did about the church we were in some 40 years ago. One further conclusion we came to is that the kinds of questions about institutional integrity you raise are best raised from within the institution. It sounds to me as if you’ve already made the same move we did, to part company with the institution in order to try a new experiment in following Jesus. That means it’s time to wish your church the best it can be without you, and put your critical faculties to work on your own experiment. You’ll need ‘em, because you’ll be making things up as you go along and may not have the benefit of helpful criticism from someone else like yourself.
An advantage of calling your Jesus project an experiment is that you don’t have to be uptight about it. In other words, you’re trying it out to see if it will work. If it works, you can expect others to be interested in trying something like it themselves (whether or not they have the nerve); if it doesn’t work, others can learn from your mistakes. In either case you will not be alone. You will have plenty of support from the rest of us who have had both successes and failures.
At first we called our experiment in “family-centered” (vs “church-centered”) Christian living a “secular Christian fellowship.” Probably a mistake, since most folks equate “secular” with something like “unholy” (from too many comparisons of secular with “sacred”), when secular really means “temporal” or “day-to-day.” Eventually we learned to say, “We’re in a small house-church.” Almost all Christians recognize that Christians in NT times met in homes, so that will make them feel better about what you’re doing (except for professional pastors; there’s no way to help them feel good about any non-church pattern of Christian living; they’re trained to lead churches). If people ask, “How many are in your house-church?” you can say, “Everyone who lives in our house and anyone who wants to join us.” Maybe eventually you can say, “Our household and several neighbor families. We have a potluck every week. You’d be welcome to join us.”
Chris, can your family handle this project? I think you said you and Diane have two children. Are they all on board? I think they need to be, but I don’t hear Diane’s voice in your blog. You questioned the church’s effectiveness in four areas of showing God’s love to the world: community; worship; teaching; giving or serving. That’s a good list to work on as a family. How do you keep your family bonds strong while welcoming others? How do you build worship around your kids’ abilities and needs? Will your kids see the love of God between you two, toward themselves, and toward others? (“Witness always: use words when necessary.”) Will you keep a good account of how you give, save, and spend the Lord’s money? And of your time?
Your circumstances will be different from what ours were. We were able eventually to have a family-centered economic enterprise as well as a spiritual one. Not every family can do that, but probably more could do it if they tried. It’s important to be as transparent as you can be with your kids, so they see you entertaining strangers, praying for people in need, finding ways to help the poor, deciding where to invest your tithe, making other economic decisions, and treating your parents (and the folks in your former church) with respect. Draw them into your fellowship and “followship.” Don’t worry about inventing appropriate rituals; just treat natural biological and social events as special occasions to remember the Lord, like saying good morning and good night, eating meals together, births and weddings and deaths and birthdays and those of your neighbors. When you eat supper, eat it in remembrance of Jesus’s death and resurrection. Teach your kids how to be joyful without being silly, serious without being grim. Read the Bible together (in short segments), especially on Sunday picnics. Read other books. Sing hymns together. Make some joyful noise.
Some of the things we tried might also work for you, but it’s most important for you to put your own minds and hearts to work on this. Give it your best shot, and count on us to be praying for you. And let’s hear from Diane. How do you guys make your living, by the way?
Hi, it’s me, Diane. I do exist and read all (and change some) of Chris’ blog entries and comments. I enjoy reading the comments in response to his blog, so thank you all for your encouragements, ideas and critiques. Most of the time I agree with his thoughts, I probably just have more emotions that get in there and stir things up.
This whole process for me started when I was just a young girl who never felt accepted by the local church. Now, I’m sure a lot of it had to do with my own insecurities because I didn’t really ever “feel” like I had a valuable role in our own family, but those feelings were there and are still there at least in reference to the local church. Growing up, I saw that my parents couldn’t really express their thoughts about what church should be, mostly because their thoughts were much the same as ours, seemingly too big for the community or, ahead of their time for that community. Needless to say, I rebelled. I’m terribly sorry for the pain it caused my parents but I just couldn’t be the perfect little christian girl. My experiences had told me that you had to have it all together to be part of the club or you were a project to be prayed for but not talked to. Anyway, a few years ago I found a friend who I felt I could be myself around, someone who wouldn’t look down on me for being a mixed up human. No “christian” expectations. The best part was that she is a totally devoted Catholic Christian. We came to accept our differences in theologies and can debate and challenge each other with full respect. My whole point with this story is that I saw that we evangelicals aren’t the only ones who know the way to God and that it really doesn’t have a whole lot with what you know anyway. I heard someone say that there is one way to God and that is through Jesus, but there are as many ways to Jesus as there are people in the world. We all have our paths and each one is unique. My path has taken me to some darker places but I love how God uses (in my life) everything from U2 to hummingbirds, from Catholics to children to show me love, I’m just disappointed it has only been once or twice I’ve encountered Him at “church”.
[...] I have a wife. 6 01 2009 And she is awesome and she left a comment on the last entry so if you scroll down in the comment section you can read a little of her story. Here is the link. [...]
Thanks, Diane. Great to hear from “Mrs. Christy”! Ginny & I love to hear of Christians who make serving Christ a “family project.” I’ve re-read Chris’s bio and learned that y’all have three kids, not just two. Wow. That makes five, for “the church that meets at your house,” a good size. With a church that size you don’t need any committees or boards or any other of the usual structures. I’m sorry that you’ve been stuck in churches where you’ve encountered the Lord only once or twice. Resolve that folks will regularly encounter Jesus in the church for which you and Chris are now responsible. Once you’ve had a little practice, the Lord will probably send you folks who haven’t been in churches at all or who have been wounded by their contacts with Christians. Those folks will need you to show them that Jesus is alive and well and that He cares for them. You’re off on a great adventure. We wish you two courage and much joy. –Walt (& Ginny)
yo. Diane thanks for the comment. When i read it is was very clear and i understand and agree fully. I usually hear Chris, probably because he is my brother and we both have loud voices:) but it was cool to see your side and i can relate to it. I search for places to encounter Christ. Work has in some ways been my church and I see and feel God there. I hope and pray that you will have many encounters with whatever you and Chris decide to do.
Walt (& Ginny) you are indicating that this experiment of being apart from an organized church means being more organized and purposeful yourself, not less so. I think that’s a challenge for many who back away from a larger church body and indeed, many who remain in it. You’ve done an amazing job, by the looks of it, in establishing the joyful alternative. As a (former) career pastor I can gladly commend that alternative as long as it’s sustainable for the generations to come.
Like Mr. Christy, I see myself as a product of the contemporary evangelical church, in the Mennonite flavour. So to generalize about myself, I am a missionary/preachers kid; learned about faith from Josh Macdowel, about sex from James Dobson, about rockn’roll from Petra, and about the end of the world from Jack VanImpe. Was active member of the youth group and went to bible school with intent of becoming a missionary.
Just as our social institutions, ( governments, corporations, media and public education) are being questioned these days, the role of church in my life is open for question. I agree with mr. christy’s critique of church and I too wonder if maybe organized religion has run it’s course. Recently I heard a critic say that as he saw it “…the world is having a conversation about faith and the church is not invited.” The statement resonated with me because of a recent discussion with a coworker. His criticism of christians is that they don’t listen. Okay, so he is bitter and narrow minded on alot of issues. But at the end of the day church says we are to love people like him. Yet when he comes to the end of his rope will he phone up his local church and say “-hey, I need help. I know I matter to you, I know you care.”? Not likely. It’s a remote possibility he would come to me because I took the time to listen, that one time. But I would not point him to church involvement as a way to heal his pain. So if a guy like him will not find healing inside the institution, what is the point of the institution?
Also in a broader view of society I don’t see church surviving in it’s current form. I think we should all start envisioning a future with a “faithful alternative” to organized religion. Faithful still to Jesus for who He is but free from controlled forms of expression and thought that have defined modern Christianity.
This is a very challenging blog and I have enjoyed interacting with all the ideas presented so far. I’ll admit that I am uncomfortable with this form of communication so I have deliberatley kept my comments broad. But I could go on…
I know this blog belongs to Chris and Diane but I want to respond to Kari and Clarence and Phil. I think Kari is right in looking for God at work. I think that the main places where God wants to “do business” are 1) where we live and 2) where we work. Ginny and I have been blessed to be able to work from our home, so that has simplified things for us (and maybe for God, too).
Clarence adds to this thought. I honor him as a career pastor, which means that the church has been HIS place of work, so he and Kari have been in the same boat. He is exactly right that “being the church” requires us to be much “more organized and purposeful,” whether within the organized church or out of it. That’s why I asked Chris if his family is up to this Jesus project. When we think of the church as an organization or institution rather than as our own selves following Jesus, well, the church is already organized (maybe over-organized), so it seldom challenges us to step up to the plate to do anything that matters. As soon as we’re “out there” with Jesus on our own, we discover that almost anything we do of lasting value will require us to “get the Lord’s act together,” which we can often get by without doing as mere church members. Probably many folks stay in churches BECAUSE it’s easier than trying to represent Jesus 1) at home and 2) at work.
Phil has also been doing the Lord’s business at work, or at least with a co-worker. I think it’s great that Phil took the time to listen to a guy who has been hurt and is probably still hurting. It will surely take more than a single conversation to tenderize someone who is “bitter and narrow-minded on some issues”. That’s one thing that Jesus’ followers can do with the time they save by not taking part in what Chris calls the “club activities” of the church. Phil, why not tell this guy that you’re looking for someone who has as many questions as you have, to read the Bible with and pray with? Have lunch together or go for a hike together or play chess or something along with it. That may take some time itself, to get to know him well enough to be comfortable proposing it. If it works, hey, you’ve got your “two or three gathered together in the Lord’s name” and you’re off and running. Pretty soon, you won’t have time to worry about whether the organized church will survive. You’ll be organizing your time around somebody else’s schedule, and that takes some doing.
A point touched on by both Clarence and Phil is sustainability. Clarence wonders if alternatives to the established church are likely to endure, and Phil doubts that the established church will endure. Of course, institutions have generally been set up and “organized” (with constitutions and boards and stuff like that) so they WILL endure past the lives of the founders. That serves the purpose of endurance, but it doesn’t guarantee that there’ll be any LIFE in the institution. So the established church is likely to last (it’s lasted a long time already) but individual churches can be moribund, whereas individual followers of Jesus eventually die and even lively house churches can thrive for awhile and then flame out or wear out.
I think that’s why the body of Christ has different members with different gifts. We need folks with patience and tact who are called to revive the dying embers of churches that have forgotten what Jesus has called them to and maybe have even developed some bad habits. We need folks with lots of imagination and courage to try some radical new experiments in following Jesus. In my experience, thoughtful Christians are too rare and precious to risk writing off any of them, in or out of organized churches. Even the simplest family-oriented style of Christian living takes a good bit of organization, I think you’ll find. Or at least a continuing purposeful convesation about how you’re going to spend your time. Not all your experiments will work any better than what has already been tried, but they’re worth trying. Keep a record of what works and what doesn’t, to share with the rest of us. Blessings,